Patch - 17.8 Preview!!

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Postby OTdude » Fri Jan 11, 2008 9:07 pm

You guys really aren't understanding the good part of this patch, only the bad such as: Invasion of Privacy, Related to other games, etc. It seems to me that your too stubborn to realize any good things such as: Helping newbies figure out how they can get better equipment, and further the social part of AO because instead of just "Post your weap plz", they will ask how they could possibly get that item(s) on. By doing this, your sharing your knowledge with other people and, maybe that person will recommend you if they have a question too. Then you can be known not just for your looks on character and items, but your knowledge as well.

I have changed my mind, you will see that before i was against it and i realize that it is just might make the game a little better. Although in this way, it is like a lot of other RPG games you will play.
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Postby Snakebite » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:52 pm

OTdude wrote:... ... Helping newbies figure out how they can get better equipment, and further the social part of AO because instead of just "Post your weap plz", they will ask how they could possibly get that item(s) on. ... ...


Actualy, this also has the potential of detracting from the family feeling of belonging to an Org, what you are sugesting there is the role normaly associated with joining & belonging to an Org...

This is after all what Orgs are for... My Org has helped countless people since I joined it about 3 years ago... & of course I'm one of them... The ability to say 'post your weapon' then understanding the answer to 'how did you get that on' wouldn't be there without my Orgs teachings first...
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Postby OTdude » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:02 am

I said the term "Newbie," so they don't have a org, and then will have to ask a few people around, but also, sometimes people don't want to bother with these kind of people that always ask them to post the item there interested in. And because they don't know the items name, they cant just use /tell itemsbot <name>. But sure, people are going around into peoples "clothing" but it really doesn't matter. I think its just there to benefit the people than have had this kind of treatment before in the past, like me, someone asking a team mate of mine to post his weapons. And its also there because along with this patch, you will have social armor, and to have people lie about there equipment and then end up getting wtf pwn'd, they can make sure to make sure there seeing if that have a good chance of winning or losing.

Sure, I can see where you people are coming from when you don't want people to see what your wearing, its either because you PvP and want to trick people, or maybe its just non of their business.

The main thing I'm trying to get at, and I'm sure Hanshoo and others are too is to just, look at the bright side of things, try to see it as a better thing with how the game is.
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Postby Hahnsoo » Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:38 am

Leileena wrote:
Hahnsoo wrote:...The technology is analogous and exists today, and certainly will be in widespread use more than 20,000 years in the future...

Seems very real life related to me..

Also, I didn't refer to real life privacy rights, I know FC has the right to give my character's information. But the game is based on a certain realistic level, and therefor I think it should have in-game privacy rights too. Agian I'd be fine with the function aslong as there is a clear option of turning it off.
Seems like you quoted me out of context. Fair enough.

You really should look at what your true real-life privacy rights actually are, in all fairness. There is really very little that is private, nowadays. Privacy is not legally guaranteed except as an exception rather than a rule (AIDS testing, for example... all other STD testing is mandatory to report to the state health authorities in the United States). And certainly, what you may consider a "right" does not exist in many locations of the world today. One of the many themes of Cyberpunk is the loss of basic human rights through the encroachment of technology. Certainly, what we consider to be inalienable rights today may not have a bearing 20,000 years in the future.

In any case, the only "rights" that you have with Funcom on their private server (not public server) is your right as a consumer. You can choose not to buy a product or service that you disagree with. Aside from that, your rights are signed away on any claim that you may have on your characters in Rubi-Ka the moment you accept the EULA and start playing. This isn't an opinion, sadly. This is a fact. Just as you cannot change the content of a Newspaper or a Magazine you subscribe to with your voice alone simply by owning a subscription.

All of this being said, the ability to inspect equipment is not a feature that will destroy the game inherently. In fact, it is a hallmark of many popular games still being played today (not just video games, either). It does require a paradigm shift on the part of the population playing on AO, it seems, but the grumblings on the official forums are the loud shouts of a vocal minority... loud, but a minority, nonetheless. I don't buy the "We don't like it, so you shouldn't like it either" method of persuasion. Peer pressure, it seems, is not just a high school thing.

I've yet to see a well-written case against the feature (either that, or it's buried in the noise)... instead, I've seen knee-jerk reactions based on personal beliefs and misconceptions of what exactly constitutes "privacy rights". "I have 6 years of experience" may be a fact, but it isn't a good argument. Neither is "I have real-life privacy rights". "A lot of players don't like it" is simply bandwagoning... there's no good reason WHY someone doesn't like the feature other than personal preference.
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Postby Uragon » Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:47 am

Hahnsoo, I really don't understand what your problem is with giving the feature an optional switch. Could even make it three options for the inspected player: Always on / Confirmation / Always off. There's already quite a few confirmation dialogues in the game, when you're joining a team, an org and the likes. So one more (if the inspected player wants to be prompted) should not be a problem. Since it sounds like you're not considering any of the points made so far to be valid, let's just agree to disagree here. I do consider "personal preference" to be a pretty valid point, and there are quite a few others that do as well. I haven't seen a good reason either that convinces me this feature should be mandatory.
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Postby Hahnsoo » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:15 am

I think there is room for both point of views on this issue. However, I would pose the counter-argument of "I really don't understand what the problem is with the original proposal as listed". The only arguments I've seen on the official forums are people who haven't shown a grasp of the full scope of the patch or choose to chalk it up to personal preference/opinion or a false sense of privacy (which really should be described as "comfort level")... in fact, the vast majority of those posts are from the usual suspects saying "I agree" without contributing something meaningful. The worst that is going to happen is that people are going to see your gear... but that's also the whole point. My "personal preference" would be an environment where Newbies, who are already have a dearth of knowledge and experience, can learn and imitate from others without having to beg or grovel at the feet of the veterans. AO is already hostile enough to the new player, what with a nearly uninstallable client, disparity between subscriber and froob, and so much to learn. An inspect feature would go a long way to helping the next generation of AO gamer, if there is to be a next generation at all.

I don't consider other people's opinion to be less valid than my own. Heck, I would hope that folks would really take a look at the issue from an objective point of view and not take my verbosity to equal validity (I simply like to explain things out, although apparently there's a lot of tl;dr going around). I do, however, would like folks to argue using facts and evidence, rather than logical constructs (which often turn out to be false, like the Slippery Slope fallacy) and semantics (which leads to the whole Privacy/Comfort confusion).

The other thing is that I tend to be a bit contrarian in nature, at times, when I see a bandwagon crashing into an issue. I do not believe that people should be subjected to mob rule, when there are other options that are valid, even if I seem to be fighting against the majority or minority. As of yet, I haven't seen anyone vouch for the new feature other than myself, and yet everyone seems to want to change my mind on the subject for some reason.
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Postby Dermut » Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:15 pm

The question of privacy is debatable. Some might feel slighted, others not. There may be a legal right for Funcom to do this, but should they. I fear too much that this new way of information gathering will not lead to more missuse to Gank other, not so well equipt players. For well establish players, this may be considered an oversight or even stupidity, but for froobs (not having access to Shadowlands , AI an LE technology) and starting players (not starting characters) this can be leathal and possibly game disrupting. As a froob myself, I am often ganked by superiour tech, this will only allow the gankers to talor-make my demise more efficiently.

Looking forward to the new social options though.
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Postby Hahnsoo » Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:57 am

The new patch notes are up, and folks in the "optional inspect" camp are claiming victory. *golf claps* I'm not sour grapes over this issue, as it doesn't really affect me... you all are invited to inspect my equipment at any time, any place. I'm just saddened that the folks at the official forums are acting childish and doing victory dances. It's as if the opposite opinion doesn't matter any more. Such is the way with populist politics and mob rule, I guess. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

At least, folks who have inspect shut off cannot inspect other people. They should make it similar for /list and /anon now that I think about it... if you are /anon, you shouldn't be able to use /list. If you are "cloaking", you shouldn't be able to use sensors. :D
"Fairy tales do not tell children the dragons exist. Children already know that dragons exist. Fairy tales tell children the dragons can be killed." G.K.Chesterton
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Postby Dagget » Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:24 am

All in all, though, the updated 17.8 preliminary notes looks much improved. The PvP titles are mostly good, the described mechanics (like Battle Station friendly nanos sustaining thru death) look good, some nano fixes (like agent FP refresh) look good.
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