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Postby Snakebite » Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:16 am

That was just a far fetched example Hahnsoo, to be honest, I don't like this at all... If they put in a request option that the inspected person had to click, then I'd be all for it... ALL for it...!
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Postby Bailau » Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:27 am

How is a new person checking out my setup a step in the right direction?

Alot of us have been playing AO since day 1 and it is a smack in the face when all the effort we made to set up toons or gain knowledge is just taken from us without asking. If someone wants to know "why and how the hek cant i hit you" I am happy to tell them. It increases the social aspect when we chat. If peaple can just "inspect" someone why talk? Hek just get rid of chat altogether and make a button so we can just copy everything.

Of course GMs have access to other information it kinda is obvious they would need that information...

As to the pvp setups are recycled. Not sure about that. There are some certain "standards" but its a thrill to face someone who you are not really sure about what they are wearing or what they have uploaded.

Well thats my opinion, if you want a game of more 220+ toons who dont know how to get to the IS or that Fixers cant wrangle then have fun with that.

Another thing, I am aware that Funcom runs this platform but we are still paying customers and i really think they should fix the existing problems more activly instead of adding more new things that really have no use.

P.S. AO is and was not like other games everything was in a way individual. I dont want to be in a game full of Clones where everyone has the same setup, how crappy that would be.
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Postby Hahnsoo » Wed Dec 26, 2007 6:14 am

Bailau wrote:P.S. AO is and was not like other games everything was in a way individual. I dont want to be in a game full of Clones where everyone has the same setup, how crappy that would be.
The game is already like this, for both Froobs and SLoobs. For SLoobs, it's even worse, because your perklines and symbiants practically dictate what you are going to be at the end-game. When was the last time you saw an Adventurer go with Piercing weapons or an Enforcer with a Shotgun? That's right, you don't see this, except among folks who experiment with crazy setups (or folks who don't know any better) at sub TL4. We ALREADY have a game full of 220s who don't know how to get to IS and think that Fixers can wrangle, and it has nothing to do with the new inspect feature.

The problem is that folks are making the logical leap of "OMG scrubs will copy my gearz." However, it doesn't invalidate the amount of work that you put into acquiring the gear or researching your character. If someone inspects you and sees that you have, say, a pair of melee Arul Sabas, it won't do them any good until they acquire the Arul Sabas on their own. It also offers the ability to provide misinformation to potential opponents, by putting in un-optimized gear in certain locations to give the ruse that you are less powerful than you really are.

The reality is that in MMORPGs, even ones that allow you to inspect setups, this does not have an impact on both general and competitive gameplay. For example, in Guild Wars, it was fairly easy to copy someone else's setup (before the ability to actually link any possible setup through a simple chat command), as it is always 8 Skills and an Attribute distribution. There still was a great variety of character setups, and the competitive PvP was largely ruled by the metagame. If you spent any amount of time playing, you knew immediately who you were going up against just by looking at the class tag. If anything new came along and rocked the metagame, it was copied and refined in less than a month. And the best players in balanced teams still remained the most effective players, without tricks or gimmicks.

I would advise that folks really take a look at how this would greatly benefit the game without jumping down the slippery slope.
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Postby Gimpeline » Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:44 am

Hahnsoo wrote:....
I would advise that folks really take a look at how this would greatly benefit the game without jumping down the slippery slope.


Name one.
Sorry, but I have read thru all the arguments both here, main forum and aofroobs and have yet to find one that is good.
My main consern is new players that don't know all the tricks and can't afford equipment. They might walk around at level f.ex 50 with ql 50 implants, They can inspect others at that level and find out that most orhers have ql 100, but since they don't have money, they can't improve the equipment, and since they can't get teams because everyone can see that, they won't ever get a chanse to improve it.
The only one I can see would benefit from this is my ignore list, since I would put anyone bashing others equipment there :lol:
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Postby Trgeorge » Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:13 pm

Equipment argument is quadriple-edged sword:
- what Gimpeline said
- helping noobs twink (as in to see what can be done as well as others suggesting them what/how to improve their equipment)
- flashing out exploits
- PvP aspects

I guess one's standpoint is based on what he/she thinks of community or how community will react (at least part of it). PvP part of community isn't sure how they want to greet this change (at campfire singing Cumba-yaa or with torches and pitchforks). And while GMs already have option to check out equip, they are just human (can't be everywhere, don't know game/professions/items in details).

Problem of this change is that it doesn't just matter how it will be implemented, but also how the community will react in-game. I managed to solo my way from lvl 50 to level 130 on fixer with same equipment in course of 2 weeks. And i could make it even futher. Yet I have felt challenged towards end (can be translated to gimped). But that was solo. In team one expects from other players to perform in specific ways, to fill their roles. Why team with doc that doesn't heal? Or tank that doesn't hold agro and stays alive? For both examples equipment is just part of a job, but with IP distribution, good equipment can save some bad choices.

At the end of the day, this is still skill based game. While somebody can do wonders with bad or outdated equipment, others will still suck with best twink gear credits can buy.
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Postby Bailau » Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:44 pm

Hahnsoo I know what you are trying to say but the reall PVP community that worked hard with Math, researching stuff, just plain figuring out how game mechanics work feel this as a kick in the face...

Its about a small bit of privacy that we still have. I mean sure if you look at my toons you can say "ah your wearing etc armor" and if you know my org and how it thinks you can Guess what symbs imps i have on. Hell you can just ask me ill tell ya. But peaple just "inspecting" me .. nah cant be friendly with that.

In my opinion Funcom should fix the bugs problems that have been around much longer so that the playing exsperiance would improve. My org has been Petitioning, sending mails etc for years about Alien raid spawn pathing in our city... with no response or "we will look into it". Or how bout the Door lag in Pen/inferno? I could go on for years about all the unfixed bugs I still see in game that should have been fixed at least 5 years ago.

Point is we dont need New buttons or info for new players or whatever. We dont need new uncastable nanos or items we cant wear. We need a game platform that is run from a company that fixes problems before intraducing "new improved buggy wtf lag holy crap cant use" stuff. Fix the problems we have and hell you can inspect my closet if you want.

Ps. Bump on your guide to AO nice work
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Postby Hahnsoo » Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:53 pm

It was my understanding that the AO Dev team isn't like Valve (where teams consist of "Cabals" which freely change from job to job). They have folks who specifically address bugs and folks who specifically add new content. In other words, the jobs are separate. Simply "adding more folks to fix bugs" in any programming job doesn't actually increase productivity (and, in fact, may create more bugs as you have more people working on the project). I personally think the major problem in finding bugs in the game is the lack of testers on the Test Server and internal FC Quality Assurance (which, in turn, stems from the fact that Funcom hasn't fixed their character transfer option to Test).

There's also the issue of the new game engine they are working on. How much effort should be spent on the sinking ship that is the old engine (Door lag in SL areas, for example) and how much of that effort should be spent creating an engine that utilizes more current hardware which could potentially fix a lot of the old issues or make them obsolete?

The other issue that the player base often grapples with is the simple fact of change. There are many who did not get each expansion as they came out, because they didn't like the way it changed the game. Some of them leave the game as the rest of the player base moves on without them. Ironically, the froob population is the one that is least affected by the patches and expansions, as their style of play is rarely changed (and if it is, then it tends to be improved).

Change is inevitable. Change is good. This is all tangential to the discussion, but one of the major problems that I see among subscribers is this whole notion of "I like the game the way it was before". In some cases, this may be justified (remember the severe lag when the new development servers were installed this summer?). But in many cases, it's just a fear of change and adapting to the game. Pre-BC nerf and before LE, Engineers were one of the top dogs in PvP. Now, they are striking in Borealis because they feel that they haven't received their just desserts. Their same old configuration doesn't work anymore. A game which sees the relationships change between the roles in the game is a healthy game. Yes, someday maybe even the mighty Adventurer profession will be toppled.

Anyway, some good reasons for this change:
1) Advertising for froobs: Froobs see ubar equipment on folks they inspect. Froobs want to upgrade.
2) Learning more about the game without groveling: So I, as a new player, don't have to beg people to "show meh ur sword". It's degrading to constantly be at the beck and call of the older veteran players, because the game itself doesn't teach you some of the fundamentals. There are great guides out there, but you have to find them first.
3) Sizing up teammates: You can finally figure out if that's really a Chiroptera that the Adventurer is using or a Right Slank. Team-politics aside, this allows you to not only see what your teammates are potentially capable of, but it also allows you to make suggestions for improvement during downtime or ask questions about particular setups. It opens the door for discussion, which is a good thing. Side note: No one in MY org would ever refuse to team with someone based on equipment... of course, in my org, we have folks who run missions in a Tutu.
4) Sizing up opponents: A lot of folks use Polymorphs (through grafts or nanos) to conceal their weapons and armor. The change may allow you to size up a potential unknown opponent better, although I'd argue that you simply wouldn't have time to inspect someone in the middle of combat.

Other reasons (good or bad):
1) Surveillance: Let's face it, surveillance technology has always far outstripped counter-surveillance technology. If you wanted to RP a spy, you could NOT get much of the crucial information that you needed through the in-game engine. /org info is about as much as you'd be able to get from anyone. This change would allow folks to spy on other people easier. It may also invent a new role of a "spotter" or "watcher" in factional PvP, someone who just sits and inspects enemy gear for future reference.
2) Copycats: Hey, look. Someone cloned my Piercing Doc setup! I'm the real Slim Shady, though. Personally, I feel that imitation is the highest form of flattery, but that's just me.

The only bad consequence that I've seen so far is "It makes old vets grumpy and over-react." I've yet to see a consequence so far that is game-destroying, at least, not one that isn't a gross exaggeration of the scope of the change. Heck, the BC nerf and the change to a 30% cap was far more game-shaking than this.
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Postby Windguaerd » Thu Dec 27, 2007 12:25 am

Hmm, look at the Rubikan in-character year. Look at current technology regarding scanning (without permission) and add a few thousand years of techology (and nanotechnology) to the concept.

For every countermeasure to block someone from scanning you, there will always be a more expensive and advance piece of equipment to work around it.

In the end, the one with the best equipment wins. Most of the time, you probably will not know someone is looking at your pink underwear under the tough alien armor you got going. Yeah, you won't even notice they see your unshaved legs ladies...and if you don't know, how can you complain about it?

I'm talking in-character worldview of course. If we look at it from the OOC (out of character) Player vs Player aspect...well that may not be as fair. But...it does provide a more balanced view of your odds of winning.

Who in their right mind is going to pick a fight with almost no chance to win? the very foolish, or the very brave.

Any sensible PvP'er would like to know if he has a chance to win (like 2 to 1 odds because the other guy has better armor/weapon).

If i'm not mistaken you still can't see another player's NCU and the nanos affecting his stats. So even with the ability to see the equipment, you still don't know what buffs he's got (even though a pro PvP'er may be able to tell by the special effects).

I PvP'ed mostly for the fun of going head to head against another gamer rather than PvE which I usually know how to beat by now. I don't care much for PvP titles and such, so perhaps my view is not as complete as it would be from a hardcore PvP'er.

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Postby Leileena » Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:54 pm

Hahnsoo seems to be very keen on relating the in-game options to real life. Let me tell you however, it is very unlikely people will be able to see what others are wearing in real life, since we have a right on privacy. Nowadays the scanners are only used by security personel. So it's not a suprise GM's do have the ability to inspect. Though for "normal" players, I think it should be the choice of the player weither or not he/she wants to be inspected. I'd be fine with the function aslong as there is a clear option of turning it off.
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Postby Hahnsoo » Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:21 am

Leileena wrote:Hahnsoo seems to be very keen on relating the in-game options to real life. Let me tell you however, it is very unlikely people will be able to see what others are wearing in real life, since we have a right on privacy. Nowadays the scanners are only used by security personel. So it's not a suprise GM's do have the ability to inspect. Though for "normal" players, I think it should be the choice of the player weither or not he/she wants to be inspected. I'd be fine with the function aslong as there is a clear option of turning it off.
I'm actually NOT relating this to real life. The technology is analogous and exists today, and certainly will be in widespread use more than 20,000 years in the future, assuming that AO is indeed futuristic in terms of technology. However, people are making the assumption that their comfort level is the same thing as privacy rights. This is false and misleading. You do not have any privacy rights for your in-game characters in a video game, especially one that is run on public servers owned by a corporation.

Real life rights to privacy have no bearing on a video game. It is the distinction between allowing someone to see, say, your in-game health points or your in-game profession, and the game company selling your private e-mail or demographics to an advertiser. The latter is protected, the former is not. There is a world of difference between the government spying on you through your telephone and e-mail (which is probably what they are doing right now, if you live in the United States... just check out the recent Telecom-NSA spying scandal), and being able to see someone else's gear in an online game.

It is of no more (or less) importance than having someone you may not necessarily know or like access your Myspace page to learn more about you. What you choose to wear on your character is your own choice when you play this game, and you play this game with other people. It is not your private playground. It's not like Funcom is forcing you to reveal your real life gender (like in a recent Chinese MMO). It's what your avatar is wearing, not you, and your avatar is owned by Funcom. Thinking otherwise is similar to thinking that anything you post on your Myspace page is only going to be seen by yourself or those that you like.

Throughout the history of roleplaying games, the concept of Character Sheets have always been public knowledge. This is knowledge that is shared across the table so that everyone knows they are playing by the same context, the same rules. Being able to inspect your gear is just like being able to see someone else's character sheet. I don't know of what others opinions are on this, but most folks consider this a benign event, and people who DO get defensive about their character sheets are often hiding something detrimental to the game as a whole (those secret stashes of gold you were hiding or that magic weapon that you wrote in without the other players' or GM's knowledge). Even the most hardcore roleplayers that I know do not hide this information from others... they share it freely, because roleplaying is a game of trust and cooperation, even among adversaries.

I personally hope that everyone who comes across my character inspects my character, and learns exactly what makes me tick. It will save me some random tells, at the very least. Newbies shouldn't have to beg to see your gear, and you shouldn't have to deal with folks wanting to inspect your gear through private tells.
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Postby Leileena » Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:11 pm

Hahnsoo wrote:...The technology is analogous and exists today, and certainly will be in widespread use more than 20,000 years in the future...

Seems very real life related to me..

Also, I didn't refer to real life privacy rights, I know FC has the right to give my character's information. But the game is based on a certain realistic level, and therefor I think it should have in-game privacy rights too. Agian I'd be fine with the function aslong as there is a clear option of turning it off.
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Postby Bailau » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:26 am

I think if you would read the Official AO forums, you would see that over 99% of the players do not feel confertable with this.

You keep saying we have no "rights" because it is a public server. I have been playing and PAYING AO for 6 years and i think I have a right to our setup.

I guess you just dont get it that AO is not like other online games and that this aspect is the reason why peaple have been playing so long. If I wanted the standard online game junk then i would be playing WOW or EVE now wouldnt I?

Again.. 6 years AO againts your what? 1 year? mate ask the community
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Postby Uragon » Thu Jan 10, 2008 10:45 am

Bailau wrote:Again.. 6 years AO againts your what? 1 year? mate ask the community
It's that type of derogatory comments which actually weaken your point considerably. I'd also be careful about reading too much into that huuuge *bump* thread in the AO Forums. Those kinds of threads could very well be caused by a vocal minority. Far from everybody in the AO community reads or even posts on these forums.

Don't get me wrong, I also think this feature should be optional for the inspected player. But please keep your "I am better with my 6 years" comments to yourself. If only for the fact that it makes you look arrogant and a few other things which I won't mention here.
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Postby Snakebite » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:21 pm

Keep it calm in here guys, dont make me Moderate anything...
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Postby Bailau » Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:03 am

/me keeps it down

:)
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